Douglas County History Research Center

Oral History Interview with

Helen Campbell

Conducted on May 8, 1992, recorded in Castle Rock, Colorado.
1992.004

Castle Rock Historical Society Oral History Project

[Interview conducted] by Marie Clayton

Transcribed by Evelyn Kriek

Original transcript on deposit at
Douglas County History Research Center
Douglas County Libraries

Note: The transcript of this oral history is as accurate as possible. All text in brackets is not part of the oral history. It has been added for clarification purposes.

MARIE CLAYTON: Um, I'm Marie Clayton, and I'm one of the ah, committee members of the Douglas County and Castle Rock Historical Society, and I'm meeting with ah, Helen Campbell at 403 Perry Street, Castle Rock, and she lives in the Reyn Rock, R-E-Y-N R-O-C-K, apartments on Perry Street. And she's been a resident here for a number of years and the purpose of our visit is so that Helen Campbell can tell us a little bit about what she has seen and heard and lived through during her time here in Castle Rock. Uh, the date is May 8, 1992, and it's about 5:05 in the evening, and at times during this tape you may hear the charming sound of her coo-coo clocks. We've heard two of them sound in just the past few minutes, and they'll mark our time as we go through this tape. The persons present are a neighbor of Mrs. Campbell who has lived here for a number of years. And she is sitting here quietly on the couch and ah, it's Marie Clayton and ah, Helen Campbell, Helen's daughter, Sue left, and ah, is aware that we're taping this. And after I asked Miss Campbell her permission to allow this tape to be recorded and also to allow the Colorado ah, Castle Rock Historical Society to retain this tape and also to duplicate it and have it available for ah, the town of Castle Rock for future purposes and duplication to be sure that it's updated and retained. With that, Helen Campbell, do you agree to allow me to tape this and --

HELEN CAMPBELL: Yes.

CLAYTON: -- Allow it to a part of the --

CAMPBELL: Yes.

CLAYTON: Castle Historical Society?

CAMPBELL: Yes. Yes. Yes.

CLAYTON: Thank you. Ah, Helen, what I would like to ask you is a little bit of history about you -- how you grew up, your parents, where you came from, and your date of birth and how over time, you got ah, through your early childhood to the present point. Can you start with where you were born?

CAMPBELL: Well --

CLAYTON: And your date of birth?

CAMPBELL: I was born in Ames, Iowa, ah July the 22nd, 1915. I lived in Iowa until 1952 when I moved to Aurora, Colorado, and I've been here ever since. Ah, I, ah, raised five children. I nursed for 23 years.

CLAYTON: Where did you nurse?

CAMPBELL: I worked at the Veterans VA Hospital, the National Jewish Hospital.

CLAYTON: In Denver?

CAMPBELL: In Denver. I worked at Rocky Mountain Hospital. I worked at Valley High Nursing Home. I managed the, the supervisor about seven or eight years there.

CLAYTON: Was National Jewish a TB hospital when you worked there?

CAMPBELL: Yes, it was.

CLAYTON: Was Rocky Mountain an osteopathic hospital?

CAMPBELL: Yes, yes it was. Very nice, and I just think National Jewish is one of the best hospitals in the country.

CLAYTON: Known for what?

CAMPBELL: For their asthma, their TB, any pulmonary diseases. I think they're grand, and they're gracious. It doesn't make, it doesn't any difference your status in life, color, creed, or what you own. You got the same treatment. It's a very nice hospital. I enjoyed working there very much.

CLAYTON: So you came from your birthplace --

CAMPBELL: Here in [19]52.

CLAYTON: Why, how did you get here?

CAMPBELL: Well, I came on the train. I transferred from the Veterans Hospital in Des Moines to come here. We thought we'd like a change. So that's what we did. I, I had, I transferred from one VA Hospital to another VA Hospital. And then my husband went to work for their Arsenal out here. And he died in 1960.

CLAYTON: The Rocky Mountain Arsenal?

CAMPBELL: Uh, huh. And ah, I ah, then I ah, I went to -- in 1964, I became ill, and I had to, I ah, had to quit nursing because I had severe osteoporosis. And so I had to quit nursing, and I went to Hawaii and visited with my sons there several times. And then I went and stayed a couple of years, ah, in Hawaii, and I was a “Nana” for a year for five little Japanese boys, which was delightful, delightful.

CLAYTON: What was that family's name?

CAMPBELL: Mogi [sp?], Itoshi Mogi [sp?]. He had five little boys, the oldest was thirteen, ages from five to thirteen. Their Momma had died with leukemia. So I stayed there over a year till they could get a new Momma.

CLAYTON: Do they keep in touch with you?

CAMPBELL: Every once in a while I hear, but they're grown up now, you know. And it was a pleasure. I went as a missionary there.

CLAYTON: What missionary did you work for?

CAMPBELL: Baptist Church. In the Baptist Church. Our preacher came and asked me if I would go and help them. I said, “Well, I'm not well, but ah -- the father said that he would get a housekeeper and a cook, if I'd just come and take care of the boys.” It was the children's supervisor, and he gave me -- I had help, and they were very nice to me. And I -- it was very time.

CLAYTON: Where did you go to nursing school?

CAMPBELL: Des Moines, Iowa.

CLAYTON: At what hospital?

CAMPBELL: Mercy. Mercy and Des Moines General. I took one year at Mercy and two years at Des Moines General.

CLAYTON: Does that make you --

CAMPBELL: I was a licensed practical nurse. I took my State Boards in 1950.

CLAYTON: How much has changed in nursing?

CAMPBELL: Ah, I'm ashamed. I think nursing has just -- I think they've degraded so far down. I, I really am very unhappy ah, you can't tell them, who's a nurse and who's not a nurse when you go in the hospital anymore. They don't consider their cap. We thought our -- when we worked and got a cap, we thought we were somebody. And we never saw a nurse come on the floor with dirty shoes, dirty shoe strings, and they were always clean, white, professional looking. And you just can't tell if they're a nurse or what they are anymore. And we always -- of course, I guess they call it progress. Ah, we always gave bed baths. Ah, we took, took good care of our patients. Now they come in and throw a pan of water at you and say, “Take your own bath or do what you want to do,” and that's it. They give you your medicines and that's all, that's about all the care you get from a nurse is -- that's it. I guess it's progress. And I guess I'm just getting old.

CLAYTON: Did your parents send you to nursing school?

CAMPBELL: No --

CLAYTON: Or did you pay?

CAMPBELL: I went myself. After my baby started school all day. I --

CLAYTON: How old were you?

CAMPBELL: Well, let me see. Huey is twenty-six. Let's see -- I, I must have went ah, I must have been about thirty-one when I started into nursing training.

CLAYTON: Why did you go then?

CAMPBELL: The doctor advised for me to do something that I would enjoy doing. I was so worn out, and I -- it, depressed. And he said, “You go do something you want to do.” And that's what I wanted to do.

CLAYTON: Let's -- let me ask you about your early childhood. What, how did you grow up and who were your parents?

CAMPBELL: Ah, my mother's name was Clara Ida Bennington, and my father was Jesse Blair. And my father and mother were separated when I was three. I had one brother, Charles, and my grandmother, my father's mother raised him. But we weren't raised together. I had a step-father. As far as step-fathers go, ah, I guess he was just as good as most any step-father until -- you know, of course, I got rebellious when I was about fifteen. I didn't want to take no orders, you know. But ah --

CLAYTON: How did a young lady in those days -- now what year are we talking about? How did you become rebellious then?

CAMPBELL: Well, I, huh, well, I was just shifted around. Ah, I, I had to take second place you know. Ah, and if my step-father was in a good mood, I could, why things went pretty smooth, but if he wasn't, then I'd go to Grandma's or I'd go some place and stay with them. And ah, so I just shifted around, shifted around. And I always felt like I was in the way. And ah, so I said, “Well, I'll just get married.”

CLAYTON: How old were you?

CAMPBELL: I was sixteen, and I never regretted a day because I said -- I was so glad I did marry young, 'cause my husband died so young. If I'd waited later, we wouldn't have had as many years as we had together. So ah -- I was glad. And I had my last child when I was about twenty-six years old. So I was glad, I was very, was very glad that I got married young and had my children when I was young.

CLAYTON: How -- What are the names of your children?

CAMPBELL: Well, I have Charles, Rex, Dennis, Hugh, and Sue. I got four boys and a girl.

CLAYTON: And their last names are all Campbell?

CAMPBELL: The boys are Campbell. And Sue's a Gelroth.

CLAYTON: And they all live in and around --

CAMPBELL: My one son lives in Elizabeth. One son lives in, ah, Lake Havasu, one son lives in ah, Lancaster, California, and one son lives in Thornton. And Sue lives in Acres Green.

CLAYTON: Where were your parents born? And what were their names? Ah, what were your grandparents' names? You told me your parents' names.

CAMPBELL: Ah, Herman and Della Bennett are my grandparents on my mother's side. And my grandfather, Blaire on my father's side ah, I don't know much about, but my grandmother was named Truman, Susan Truman. She was the one who raised my brother. And ah, of course, he lives in Iowa. He's never left Iowa. And ah, we get to see one another about twice a year.

CLAYTON: So your family is mostly in and around here.

CAMPBELL: Yes. Well, they were all here until just a few years ago, but ah, they're getting scattered. My grandchildren are scattered all over. I have fourteen grandchildren and fifteen great grandchildren.

CLAYTON: So you came --

CAMPBELL: My mother was born in Kansas, and I think my father was born in Missouri.

CLAYTON: So when you married and then became a nurse, your children were fairly older when you got into nurse's training.

CAMPBELL: Uh-huh.

CLAYTON: Your husband was dead at that time?

CAMPBELL: No, no. He didn't die until [19]60.

CLAYTON: Okay.

CAMPBELL: We had been -- we came out here in [19]52.

CLAYTON: Your husband and your children and you?

CAMPBELL: Yeah. Uh, huh. And then he died in [19]60.

CLAYTON: What brought you here from Iowa?

CAMPBELL: Well, we wanted to change. Ah, it -- it was better for us to change. Ah, I, I -- one of the reasons I thought my husband needed better companions than he was with. And my Mother wasn't -- I'd say, well, she wanted to run everybody's, run my life. And we decided that it was time that we should be able to run our own. So we decided to come out here. And we did.

CLAYTON: And when you came from Des Moines, you came to what city in Colorado?

CAMPBELL: Aurora.

CLAYTON: Aurora. What was Aurora like in --

CAMPBELL: It was a nice little town.

CLAYTON: What year are we talking about?

CAMPBELL: [19]52.

CLAYTON: 1952.

CAMPBELL: It was a nice town.

CLAYTON: And it was called Aurora.

CAMPBELL: Yes.

CLAYTON: And where was Aurora located then? What area?

CAMPBELL: I lived on Newark Street, but then we bought and built a house out in Commerce City, which was called ah, what was it called then? It wasn't Commerce City. It was Derby, I think, when we moved out there. But they changed it to Commerce City.

CLAYTON: It was called Derby. Was that because of the horse race track out there?

CAMPBELL: I don't know what was the reason for that. But we had a home. We built a home out there, and I don't -- been out, we'd only been there about three years when my husband died. So I just sold it. I didn't stay out there. I just said, “There was no use me being out there by myself.”

CLAYTON: And then what did you do?

CAMPBELL: Well, I just -- let's see, what did I do then? Oh, I worked and worked and worked and worked and worked and worked. And then, then I -- got sick in [19]64 and then I went to Hawaii, and back and forth, I don't know how many trips I made to Hawaii. And then finally I, ah, got my disability, my social security and ah, I haven't worked since [19]70. And ah, that's just about it.

CLAYTON: And how did you get to Castle Rock?

CAMPBELL: Well, I came back from Hawaii --

CLAYTON: In 1970?

CAMPBELL: In [19]75, and my daughter said, “Oh, Mother, they're building the nicest building down there.” She says, “It'd be so much easier for us if -- ” I had two sons in Elizabeth at that time. And Sue right over here in Acres, “It would be so much easier for us to drive in to -- ” and besides Aurora's beginning to get more corrupt, and they fear that I, it wasn't a very good place for me. So we came down, and I put my name in here. I wasn't really anxious to move 'cause I'd had an attack where I was at, and ah, but Mrs. Reynolds called me and asked if I would take the management job. And I said, “No, no, no.” I said --

CLAYTON: Management job of what?

CAMPBELL: This building.

CLAYTON: The Reyn Rock building?

CAMPBELL: And I said, “Oh, no, no.” I said, “I'm on disability.” And -- “Oh, it wouldn't be hard work.”

CLAYTON: Now how did this building get started?

CAMPBELL: That I don't know. Mr. And Mrs. Reynolds started it. And they've had a hard time getting it started. I understand that they had a, a lot of opposition.

CLAYTON: From what?

CAMPBELL: From the Council.

CLAYTON: What, what, the City Council of Castle Rock?

CAMPBELL: Yeah. They didn't want the building because ah, of the -- well, it was too tall. And--

CLAYTON: Too tall? How many was built -- ?

CAMPBELL: Five stories.

CLAYTON: Five stories.

CAMPBELL: They didn't have the ladder for the Fire Department. It wasn't tall enough.

CLAYTON: They didn't have a ladder.

CAMPBELL: Yeah. And then it was going to take up too much parking, and ah -- that's -- bye, bye.

CLAYTON: We're saying good-bye to Mrs. Gelroth. She's going home. We'll see her again. So they, they didn't have the right equipment for this tall of a building!

CAMPBELL: No.

CLAYTON: In 1975! Who were the members of the Council at that time?

CAMPBELL: Honey, I couldn't tell you all of them. I know ah, I just -- that Max, Daniels, but I don't know who they were really. Huh, I know Pat was head of the --

CLAYTON: Pat?

CAMPBELL: What was her last name? Niles. She was was head of Senior Center up there.

CLAYTON: Senior Center of Douglas County?

CAMPBELL: Uh, huh. Senior citizen center up there.

CLAYTON: Did she have a title?

CAMPBELL: I guess she was director of it. I would call her that anyway.

CLAYTON: Okay.

CAMPBELL: And it's a nice -- they did lots of nice things for the seniors. Huh, it's a nice place. They have a shuttle that comes and picks up people if they want to go. And they've been very -- it's been a nice service for the seniors. And Pat's retired and she's not no longer there. They have a new lady now.

CLAYTON: Well, how did this -- what was the purpose of this building when it first started?

CAMPBELL: It was for the needy. Low income people.

CLAYTON: A certain age group?

CAMPBELL: You had to be sixty-two or on disability to get in here. And ah, when we first moved in here, most of our people that was coming in, were in their seventies, early seventies. And now they're in their eighties.

CLAYTON: Are many of the same people?

CAMPBELL: We have about nine left.

CLAYTON: Of the original?

CAMPBELL: Of the original.

CLAYTON: How many people does this building hold?

CAMPBELL: We have thirty-three units.

CLAYTON: And they're all single rooms?

CAMPBELL: Yes. They're all one bedroom apartments. Now we have three handicapped apartments on the first floor.

CLAYTON: Which means?

CAMPBELL: Ah, they have more space for wheelchairs. They can get around more in there. It's -- they're made a little different than the other units, and very nice.

CLAYTON: What are the units like?

CAMPBELL: What do you mean “like”?

CLAYTON: Do they have a one room, do they have --

CAMPBELL: They have -- the units all have one bedroom, one bathroom, a living room and small, small kitchen.

CLAYTON: So the elderly all --

CAMPBELL: They are all just like mine except that the ah, the handicaps. They're all like this one. And you pay according to your income. You pay a third of your income in this building.

CLAYTON: Who do you pay the money to?

CAMPBELL: Mr. And Mrs. Reynolds. Of course, they have to -- HUD pays so much and they pay so much and then it goes to the government.

CLAYTON: HUD is a --

CAMPBELL: The government.

CLAYTON: Subsidized through HUD.

CAMPBELL: Yes. And ah, we have disposals. We have a nice laundry room. Ah, we have a nice community room. We have ah, activities here every -- we have birthday parties every three months. And we celebrate birthdays and have pot luck and ah, we -- some of the girls play “Uno” on Saturday nights and ah, they -- it's a lovely -- Everybody just tends to their own business. If you want company, you open your door. If you don't, you shut it. And nobody intrudes on nobody, but -- I have. But she's --

CLAYTON: Now did you tell me that you were once the manager of this apartment here?

CAMPBELL: Yes, when they first opened it. I came -- I stayed all night here on the 13th of November --

CLAYTON: 19-- ?

CAMPBELL: 1981. I think it was [19]81 that we moved in here 'cause I'll be here eleven years in November.

CLAYTON: Tell me a little bit about the building and the town at that time?

CAMPBELL: Well, we had our building was -- we was able to move it, but there was an awful lot that had to be done after we got in, you know. All of the details of things, and oh, some of them contractors were something else.

CLAYTON: Like -- ?

CAMPBELL: I don't know all their names. Tim White was in on it, too. But -- I, I don't know --

CLAYTON: Was there some funny stories?

CAMPBELL: Yes.

CLAYTON: -- Or interesting things?

CAMPBELL: I, I'd rather not say about the building. I think that's Mr. Reynolds' business not mine. Ah, I know he's worked awful hard to repair things, and ah, get things up to where he thinks they should be. But he's had a hard time. But ah, he sure has done a wonderful job and ah, they're all happy here. Ah --

CLAYTON: Do you recall some of the original people here?

CAMPBELL: Oh, my, lots of them. I --

CLAYTON: Know their names?

CAMPBELL: Oh, yes, I knew all of them. Ah, Minnie Metzler was our people. Ellen Smith, Corrina Snyder, Vern Chillers [sp?] -- all of them are gone. Red Rivers [sp?] -- so many of them are gone. Ah -- we had very few people that moved from here. We had some that goes to the nursing homes from here and then they died. Now we've never had -- only one person every died in our building. That was Bill Cardiff.

CLAYTON: Bill Cardiff died here? What happened?

CAMPBELL: He had a heart attack.

CLAYTON: Did people respond? Was there a way for him to call for help?

CAMPBELL: No, we didn't know it till the next morning. And he, ah, he wasn't near a bell -- you know, we have bells in our building. One in the bedroom and one in the bathroom to call the manager if we need help. Well, Bill happened to be sitting in the living room on a chair, and he just passed. So the next morning, one of the, the girls went up to see what his -- you know, always check on him. And he was dead.

CLAYTON: Now when you say “the girls”--

CAMPBELL: Mrs., Mrs. Stewart found him. Helen -- they were real close friends. Helen and Bill, and she went to see if Bill was all right, and it was a shock for her. For all of us 'cause he was such a jolly fellow. \

CLAYTON: So he was here all night in that condition?

CAMPBELL: Yeah. Uh, huh. Well, we don't know what time -- sometime in the late night. I don't -- but he'd been sitting in a chair. I suppose watching television, you know.

CLAYTON: Do most people here have a way to call 911 or -- ?

CAMPBELL: Oh, yes, they all have --

CLAYTON: Assistance for medical care?

CAMPBELL: They all have phones.

CLAYTON: Okay.

CAMPBELL: And ah, they all have a bell in the bathroom, and one in the bedroom that they can ring for the manager if they need help, but if you're in here, it don't really do you no good, see? Now I've got one of those little things, you hang around your neck and you press a button and it alerts my son and ah, but I ah, I -- , -- I just don't know -- I, I , as I say, I had a little scratch but ah, I fell on my own. [Chuckle from Campbell]. I 'm always out in the, the bedroom -- of the people --

CLAYTON: Uh, huh.

CAMPBELL: 'Cause I ah, I took this job more or less to help people, but I'm, I like to help people. I consider my, I um -- , I'm not perfect. No one is, but ah, I do love the Lord and I try to live a Christian life. I try to do everything I can to help someone else. I belonged to that Castle Rock Church for ten years, nine years. Then I couldn't get up the steps any more.

CLAYTON: Castle Rock Church was what?

CAMPBELL: Baptist church.

CLAYTON: The Baptist Church.

CAMPBELL: But I couldn't get up the steps anymore.

CLAYTON: Was that the one located up there on, ah --

CAMPBELL: Three or Fourth and ah -- right around Third and Perry. Third Street, right over here, just a block over.

CLAYTON: Has that church always been there?

CAMPBELL: Lots -- since I've been here. It's been here a long time. Used to be a Methodist Church. Used to be a Methodist Church, they tell me.

CLAYTON: Who's the Pastor since you've been here?

CAMPBELL: Oh, we had Dr. Lambert. And then we had Tom Sancol [sp?], and now they got a new man, and I don't know his name. Al something, but I don't know it. But I can't get up all those stairs so I go to Sedalia, ah, to the Baptist Church, Clearview Baptist. And my pastor is Doyle Meninghall [sp?], and they don't have no stairs for me to climb. I just can walk right in the sanctuary.

CLAYTON: How do you get over there?

CAMPBELL: They come and get me. They come and get me. They're always coming to pick me up and take me and ah, I don't get to go every Sunday 'cause I just been out of the hospital two weeks. I got blood clots on my lungs right at the present. [chuckles].

CLAYTON: So you're taking medication and need to stay close to home?

CAMPBELL: Uh, huh. I got congestive heart failure.

CLAYTON: Now, ah, what about medical care in this area if you need it?

CAMPBELL: Ah, they have Plum Creek down here, but as far as doctors are concerned, we don't have very many. Ah --

CLAYTON: Is your doctor in this area?

CAMPBELL: No. I belong to Kaiser. And I go over to the Arapahoe County Clinic. My doctor is Dr. Meala [sp?], Mary Meala [sp?]. And they send -- if I need anything, they send the ambulance and get me. And ah, all I have to do is call and say, “I need it.” And they send, come and get me. So I, I'm covered. Ah --

CLAYTON: So you first came here and you managed the building. And then you must have given that up at some point?

CAMPBELL: I did, after three years. I said, I told Mr. And Mrs. Reynolds “the day I get seventy, I'm retiring and not doing, doing nothing else but going to the penthouse and sit.”

CLAYTON: Now what do you describe as the penthouse?

CAMPBELL: My apartment, and I've got the most beautiful view.

CLAYTON: Tell me about it. You're on the fifth floor --

CAMPBELL: I'm on the fifth floor, and I see all the mountain ranges. I see people going to the bank, and who goes to the court house and who goes and who comes.

CLAYTON: You're located right almost catty-corner to the court house, the new court house I should say.

CAMPBELL: Yes. Yes. I wasn't here when the old one was here. It was -- this one was built and nobody likes this building.

CLAYTON: [Laughter] Why?

CAMPBELL: They think it looks like a jail! They don't like it. But they have improved the yard very much, and the streets have been fixed, and ah, I love the, the trees they planted and I like the benches they put in the street. Ah, I think they've did a very fine job and ah, I enjoy it.

CLAYTON: Now they're digging over on that hill where the train going past. Is that -- what railroad is that over there?

CAMPBELL: Gosh, I don't know the train. I don't know but I can watch the trains go and ah, it's just a delightful -- ah, I watch the sunset. Ah, I think I have the best apartment in the whole house.

CLAYTON: Is this the only one like this? On this -- that you can get this view?

CAMPBELL: Well, not, the lady next door gets it. On the fifth floor on the west side. But ah, when we're up high, we get -- the lower floors on the west don't get the view we do 'cause they're too low, you know. Now when I first moved in here, there was a building right here between us and the bank. There was some apartment houses right in here.

CLAYTON: What bank is this right here?

CAMPBELL: Douglas County Bank, and there was some buildings in there and they had -- in that building, there was some apartments, and then they, they had these drivers license in that building at that time. But I haven't been here very long until they tore them all out.

CLAYTON: Now you're right on the corner of -- ?

CAMPBELL: Fourth and Perry.

CLAYTON: Fourth and Perry, which is one block east of --

CAMPBELL: Wilcox.

CLAYTON: Fourth and Wilcox.

CAMPBELL: Uh, huh. Yes.

CLAYTON: Have you seen much changes in the type of businesses around town?

CAMPBELL: Well, we've lost so many different businesses.

CLAYTON: Like?

CAMPBELL: Like -- we had -- and we hated it when they moved our post office. That was terrible! They stuck it way out there and, and it took -- and so many of our people don't have cars. When it was over there, we could walk to the post office.

CLAYTON: When you say “over there,” you mean?

CAMPBELL: It was on Jerry Street? And they took the post office and set it way out there by Walmart, out in there. And it's -- nobody has people can walk to that. And we hated that very bad, and ah, we lost a drugstore.

CLAYTON: What drugstore?

CAMPBELL: Russ' drugstore. And then we had a bakery, and it didn't make it.

CLAYTON: What was the name of the bakery?

CAMPBELL: Ah, I don't know.

CLAYTON: Was there a grocery store?

CAMPBELL: We used to have, not since I've been here, but in 1965, [19]64, [19]65, I worked up at the care center. I nursed there.

CLAYTON: The Silver State?

CAMPBELL: The Silver State for a while. And at that time, we had a grocery, a nice grocery store, Naylor's grocery store. We had Bob's Meat Market, ah, oh, they were lovely. And a we had a variety store here in Castle Rock. And ah, it was nice. We could just get what you needed. Now they just -- I don't why. It's just dead. It's dead, dead, dead. Walmart, we were happy to get Walmart. But unless you drive, you don't get to it. Ah, we need a nice store right down town that the people can walk to, but ah, we're just small peas in the pod here, you know.

CLAYTON: Now you're talking mainly about the people around town who need assistance getting somewhere?

CAMPBELL: Yeah, uh-huh. [unclear] You have to call a shuttle or now there, I don't think there's more than five or six people in this building that drives a car. So you have to go or have your friends, pardon, have your family to come and take you. Now all the restaurants are all over, over in the, over where the Village Inn across the bridge. They've put everything over there. If they'd put something down here, it would be nice. But everything goes over there. And ah, so we would like to have a nice family restaurant, a nice one, downtown. Now we have a Stone Church. Now it's -- but it's never open on Sundays.

CLAYTON: Huh.

CAMPBELL: And lots of people like to eat out on Sunday, and you can go there for lunch and get a nice lunch, but it's too expensive for us people at night which is, you know, live on fixed incomes. And ah, it's -- I just wish that we could have some small businesses in Castle Rock. I'd like to see a nice variety store, but we'll never get anything now that Walmart's there. I don't think anything will come in.

CLAYTON: And that was the main reason some of the places moved out? Was there any other economical things that caused that?

CAMPBELL: Well, I think it's the city. They don't want it. They don't want no change. They want to stay a cow-town. That's my opinion. They don't want change. They don't want change. And ah, -- this is where I live and I expect to stay here till I die. And ah, I'm happy in my home. I can't say that I'm enamored with Castle Rock, but it's nice. Now Mr. Fox has one nice drugstore. He's one of the nicest persons. He's a friend of the people here. He's very accommodating. I'm sure he's been awful nice to everybody. And ah, I think he'll survive this storm, ah, even though Walmart and Safeway sell drugs, I think Jerry'll survive the storm.

CLAYTON: Have you seen much change in the people here or how people live here?

CAMPBELL: I don't get enough out -- I can't really comment. I don't get out enough to see them. Ah, I don't think, ah, I'll tell you it's a very hard, ah, place, ah, to get people to go to church. There are a lot of unchurched people from Castle Rock. Very a lot of them. Don't go nowhere. Don't want to go nowhere.

CLAYTON: Have you seen very much -- things as far as the politics of the town -- ?

CAMPBELL: Always politics. It's politics.

CLAYTON: Tell me some, ah, things that have happened that you, you're aware of as far as -- ?

CAMPBELL: Well, when I first moved in here, I couldn't get no commodities for my people 'cause they said that the -- well, our quota was too low. And so I finally got a meeting at the courthouse with the Commissioners, and with Jorgenson. She's the head of Social Service. And ah, I was told, “Well, if you didn't get anything, you wouldn't starve anyway.” And I thought that was a poor attitude. I, I thought my people in this building deserved better than that.

CLAYTON: What kind of commodities?

CAMPBELL: Well, it's government. It's government commodities like every other county gives to their people. It's surplus. You get cheese, and butter and rice and flour, and ah, canned goods. Sometimes, it's canned meat. Well, we ah, they just said that our quota was so low they didn't want to bother 'cause they couldn't make it go around. Well, we finally had to arguing, they started giving it to us about every three months. Well, it was still coming out of ah, Senior Center. Mrs. Reynolds went and got it. It was -- usually she went and got it, sometimes, somebody would go with her, but she always got it and brought it back down here for the building so the people wouldn't have to go. And then it hasn't been more than a year, I don't think it's been a year yet, they changed it. They, you have to go to the Library, ah, through Social Service and they, we have to sign up and then they take the list down and they have a little bag that you send down every month. Our manager takes it over to the Library, and they pack all our commodities and all Mrs. Reynolds has to do is pick it up and bring it to us. It's already packed. And we've been getting a lot more since it's come straight from Social Service, a lot more.

CLAYTON: Do you think there was something funny going on?

CAMPBELL: Well, I think part of it was being given to who they wanted to give it to. So we've been sharing -- we've been really getting a lot more since they've had that change. And I'm glad. It helps the people here, and they are entitled to it. And I, ah, I think maybe I wasn't too happy with some of them. Maybe I stepped on a few toes, but that didn't bother me. I don't owe Castle Rock anything. And ah, I just told them. I felt it [unclear]. And I still do.

CLAYTON: What are some, some of the reasons you feel that way?

CAMPBELL: Well, it's still cliquish --

CLAYTON: Like?

CAMPBELL: Clique, clique, clique. Well, you have to be among the top older generations or you don't fit.

CLAYTON: When you say that --

CAMPBELL: And they don't want no poor people. They don't want poor people in Douglas County. That's just a no-no. They really aren't too happy with poor people in Douglas County. They're not sympathetic towards the poor people [unclear] Douglas County, that's all.

CLAYTON: And you've talked to some of the Commissioners about this?

CAMPBELL: [chuckles] Back when I went over and talked to them about the commodities here, they know how I feel. But we got the commodities, so I, and I'm not in management anymore, and when I left managing, I left it there. I, ah, I didn't, I figured somebody else could do the fighting, and I just retired. And I enjoy my retirement.

CLAYTON: So you get to watch people. Do you see much change in the clothes or the kids or ah -- drugs?

CAMPBELL: Well -- [very softly] the drugs are bad.

CLAYTON: The drugs are bad. You get quite an eye full from here.

CAMPBELL: Yeah, well, before they fixed the new courthouse lawn. Oh, they'd have fights over there, and they'd scream, and they'd yell.

CLAYTON: The kids or the adults?

CAMPBELL: All, all of them. Whoever was over there. But they don't congregate there as much now that we've got the lights so bright. And I -- they still gang up, three, four and five, the police had to take, come the other night and settle something over there on the corner. They ran over here and got between the garages, the bank and the garage. So, I -- they've talked to all of them. They finally took one in a police car, but you can sit here at eleven o'clock or ll:30 at night, and you can see them in the alleys, drinking, drugs, going here and going there. It's here. We have it.

CLAYTON: Mostly among younger people?

CAMPBELL: I don't know. I imagine teenagers. I imagine teenagers, I, I don't, can't see, you know. But I can see the cars come and go and what they're doing. And ah, and the beer joint over here, they come out of there at two o'clock in the morning and you can hear them blabbin' and blabbin' and yellin' and howling. And fighting, sometimes. But the police don't seem to bother --

CLAYTON: Have the police protected your building pretty well? Have they ever come over here for any reasons?

CAMPBELL: No, I don't -- unless, unless they're called. Well, at one time, ah, when I was manager, we had a little squabble, um -- you know, we have a security system here, and I saw this man come down the stairs, and he came out into the lobby. And I asked him what he was doing here. Well, he said, “I, ah, I'm looking for something.” I said, “Who are you and what do you want?” He said, “Well, I'm with the Police,” but he didn't say what he wanted or what he was doing, you know. So I , Mr. Reynolds was on the outside, so I told him, I said this gentlemen has been in here and I said, “I can't get too many answers from him.” And I said, “I know nobody let him in.” Some, at least it appears, somebody has let him in. So he went over to the Police Department, and they denied everything. So he came and got me and I went to the Police Department. And I, I can't say the Police Chief's name only they called him Butch. He had the foulest mouth I ever heard, and I was so insulted, I -- and embarrassed for Mr. Reynolds, too, and he denied -- I said, “Now you don't need to deny it because I saw the man.” And I talked to him. Now I don't know who gave him a key or where he got it or who let him in, but I said, “All you would have had to have done, is ask and we'd have been glad to cooperate.” But I said, “We don't like people coming in our building. We don't know who they are.” I said, “I'm there to protect those people, and I, I like to know who comes and goes.” Well, he raved and he ranted, so the lawyer came out. He heard all the fracas, and he made the Police Chief apologize. And I told them then, I said, “Well, if the town can't have any better Police Chief than this,” I said, “You're in big trouble.”

CLAYTON: What was he here for?

CAMPBELL: He was the Police, Chief of Police.

CLAYTON: But why did he come into the building?

CAMPBELL: He didn't come. It was one of his men. The Police Department, one of the men came.

CLAYTON: What did they want?

CAMPBELL: They wanted to look. They said -- they finally admitted they was watching a dope ring, and they thought if they got up there, they could see where they were going, see? Well, we would have been glad to help. But you know, you have to know who comes and goes in this building. You just can't let everybody in and say -- Well, our security wouldn't be no good at all. But ah, I, I told them, I said, “Well, I'm sorry if this is the best you've got, you're, Castle Rock is in bad shape, if this is all you've got.”

CLAYTON: Now you mentioned the, ah, the Police when you first came -- or the fire department when you first came in the building.

CAMPBELL: [laughter] He was a nice person.

CLAYTON: And they didn't want this building built because they didn't have any, any ladders and if you had a fire -- ?

CAMPBELL: No, they -- now this is what I am quoting now. That's what they told me when they came. Mr. Reynolds told me that was the opposition they had was -- it would take up too much of the parking space for the bank and the stores and everything and that they didn't have a ladder tall enough to reach this building, and they didn't want a five story building in our, their neighborhood. And, in fact, they just didn't want us here period. But Mr. Reynolds, they stuck with it.

CLAYTON: Did they come and inspect -- ?

CAMPBELL: Oh! Inspect! You bet, they come to -- why don't you do this, do that, do this, you know.

CLAYTON: Like what?

CAMPBELL: Well, the Police Department come and they didn't do so much. The Fire Department came and looked all through the building. Told everybody to keep their doors shut. And ah --

CLAYTON: Why?

CAMPBELL: Well, because of fire danger. Well, I can understand that, but when you put your cooling system in the hall, and then tell people to shut their doors. It don't make sense.

CLAYTON: You have no circulatory -- ?

CAMPBELL: No!

CLAYTON: -- Systems through your apartment?

CAMPBELL: No!

CLAYTON: The air's in the hallways -- ?

CAMPBELL: The airs in the hallway, and if you don't open your door, you don't get no air. So I said, “Well, we can't always leave our doors shut, and when it gets hot weather, we have to open the door and open the windows to get the ventilation through. But they were very nice about it.

END OF SIDE A TAPE 1

BEGIN SIDE B TAPE 1

CAMPBELL: Ah, they're awfully good, ah, to call. If you call 911, they're here right away. They're very prompt. Of course, it's across the street, you know. But ah --

CLAYTON: The Fire Department is right across the street.

CAMPBELL: And I'm not complaining about them. I think they're doing as best they know how. Of course, there's lots of -- I don't think it's only Castle Rock, I think it's everywhere right now. I think, ah, I don't think it's just our community, I think any community right now, small community, look at Aurora. It was a beautiful place, and now you're just too scared to death to live any place downtown. And --

CLAYTON: Are you afraid in Castle Rock?

CAMPBELL: No. I have never felt afraid. But I don't go out at night either, see? But, it's very -- when they fold up the sidewalks at night, the only thing you see, if you, ah, it's too bad. We needed, ah, now they did build a nice rec center up here on Woodbine, I think, up there, Wood something. But it has all kinds of swimming pools and has tennis, basketball courts and things. And it's wonderful for them. But they need a movie house or they need something down for the kids, where they can get to it, too. And ah, there's nothing here for kids. There's just nothing for the young people.

CLAYTON: What about older people?

CAMPBELL: Well, I don't know what they do. Ah, we stay home. [chuckles]

CLAYTON: They have the golf courses.

CAMPBELL: Yes, they have some golf, Plum Creek.

CLAYTON: Is that new since you came?

CAMPBELL: Yes. Plum Creek is new. Ah, but you have to have money. Castle Rock is not a poor man's town. Ah, they tell me that Douglas County is one of the richest counties in Colorado. Now I've been told this. And ah, but it's not a poor man's town. And I do wish that we could get a grocery store to give Safeway some competition 'cause they seem to “flack” it to you down there because they can sell it. There's no other grocery store around unless you go to Parker. We used to have one up here in the Village, ah, community, up there in the Village, you know. Up in there by McDonald's. They tried a couple of stores, and they both went out, so Safeway don't have no competition at all. They can charge you anything they want to. Ah, my daughter called them one day and she told them, she said, “I think it's awful what's you're doing to these old people down here.”

CLAYTON: Is that mainly for drugs?

CAMPBELL: No! Groceries!

CLAYTON: Groceries and what about prescriptions?

CAMPBELL: I think they're pretty good on that. Uh, huh. But the groceries, they can just charge you anything they want to. I bought a, a Velveeta cheese now, take for instance. A little pound package. And they charged me, ah, almost $3.50, or something like that. Anyway, my daughter could buy two pounds in her Safeway for $3.99. And she called them and told them. “Well,” they said, “That's our price.”

CLAYTON: Have you seen a lot of food change prices, ah, in, ah, changes in food?

CAMPBELL: Oh, yeah. Up, up, up, every time you go to the store. My daughter sometimes shops for me at King Soopers in town. Ah, because she can save money.

CLAYTON: In Denver?

CAMPBELL: In Littleton. 'Cause she says she can buy it cheaper than I can down here at Safeway. We need a store so bad down here for them to have some competition. Ah, that's what they need. But ah, I don't know -- when we'd ever get one or not. But they really could use one. And there's a nice big store over there. But you see that one, we'd still, ah, have to get transportation to the grocery store. If we could have a nice grocery store downtown, right downtown here, ah, where one of them restaurants is, down there where that Mexican restaurant used to be, where ah, down on Jerry, ah, corner of Jerry and Fourth, that used to be Naylor's Grocery Store, and it was a lovely store. And we liked it. They, you know, I've been a lot of times, but not now. It was gone when I got here. But we need a nice family restaurant that's reasonable. Ah, that's open on Sundays so people can go to church and eat. Ah, now there's nothing wrong with Mr. Manners. But I don't like the Village Inn. But Mr. Manners serves good food, and you, you get so many fast chain stores. We need a family restaurant.

CLAYTON: Have you seen the fast food chains come in?

CAMPBELL: Oh, yes. Over there, you've got Taco Bell, and you've got Burger King, and McDonald's and Wendy's and --

CLAYTON: Were they here when you first came?

CAMPBELL: Some of them. Not all of them. Wendy's wasn't there. Oh, yes, we got Kentucky Fried Chicken over there. Ah, I don't know -- quite a few over there. Village Inn was here, but you have to have transportation to get there.

CLAYTON: No bus service? No Senior service?

CAMPBELL: No, not on Sundays. Saturdays and Sundays, no.

CLAYTON: How do you get around?

CAMPBELL: You don't unless your family comes.

CLAYTON: So they have no Senior services?

CAMPBELL: Not on Saturdays and Sundays.

CLAYTON: Just during the weekday?

CAMPBELL: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And ah, it's ah, well it's, it's home to us now. We, we're just like a family. Of course, we got a lot of new ones in that I haven't got acquainted with much yet, because I'm not in circulation like I was. I used to do a lot of baking and do a lot of things for the people here. Have parties for them and things. But that's the past; we don't do that much. Managers don't do that now. But ah, my heart was a little different, ah, I think mine was -- I came to be of service to the people. That was my, to help people. And I baked things and do things for them and have parties for them. Ah, now it's the manager's job. When I first came here, I signed a contract to be here 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And I had one vacation in the three years I was here. I was here most of the -- I very seldom left. So I'd be here. And ah, now the other managers, no, they didn't sign contracts, and they go out and go when they want to. If they leave the key with someone, you know, so somebody can get in and out. They're not, they're not grounded like -- but we were starting something new. And Mr. -- and it was new for Mr. And Mrs. Reynolds. And that's way that we started it, and Howard said, “You've got them so spoilt, nobody else can do anything with them.”

CLAYTON: Does that come as your experience as a nurse?

CAMPBELL: I think so 'cause they all -- if it gets, they'd always come -- I always had a first aid kit in my apartment, and if anything went wrong, I'd take my stethoscope and I'd go and see what was wrong. And ah, I've had some pretty experiences with them. Some -- one little lady, Grandma Rolling called me one night. [chuckles] I got in there, and there was blood from one room of that apartment to the other. She was sitting in the bathroom, and she'd been in the bedroom, she'd been in the living room, she'd been everywhere. And the blood was just a gushing out of her leg. She had broke, a little artery had broke. So I got her in the living room, and I got her leg up and put a pressure on it, and got it stopped. Called the doctor. [chuckles] Dr. Heaton, dear old Dr. Heaton, [chuckles] He said, “Helen, what's the matter?” I told him. He said, “What did you do?” And I told him. “That's all I can do.” He said, “Just bandage it, and make her keep it up this month.” I said, “I did.” Well, I called her granddaughter. And ah, we cleaned that apartment. What a mess. But just little things like that.

CLAYTON: Now what did you call her, Grandma -- ?

CAMPBELL: Grandma Rolling. She was a dear. And Priscilla, Priscilla wasn't here very long. Allman. She was a Castle Rocker. She had been caught in the flood in the '60s, when they had big flood, and she even got in the Guide Post with her story.

CLAYTON: What happened?

CAMPBELL: Well, they got, ah, in their car and they got, I think, down there by that, where the bridge used to be, anyway, their car got all filled with sand and they almost -- it was -- it was in the Guide Post, and ah, but Priscilla's in a nursing home now. She has been for, oh, right afterwards. She wasn't here only about a year. She was a dear little soul, and she called me at six o'clock every morning. “I cold.” “I cold.” I said, “Well, Grandma, I'll be right up.” It would be one hundred degrees in that apartment.

CLAYTON: [chuckles]

CAMPBELL: And I'd get her -- put some more clothes on her, and I'd go home and that was that. About a half hour, she'd call and she'd say, “What day is?” And I'd tell her, but we finally had -- her son didn't want to put her in a nursing home. But she had to go. She didn't know when to take her pills, and we'd try to help her, but she, she wouldn't eat -- so we just had to. But she don't, she's still there, but she don't know nobody and hasn't for years. So we've had some sad experiences with them, but we've had a lot of happy things, too. Experiences in our building, we have had happy times and sad times. But we're all family here. And like I say, Mr. And Mrs. Reynolds are just lovely landlords. I, they try to keep our apartments up nice. And ah, keep it clean. Ah, we don't have a dirty building. It's very, always very clean. And I'm thankful for that. It's a nice little -- I just wish we had a few more stores down here where we could get to them. But of course, we're only thirty-three units, that's not very many people, you know. We couldn't support a -- ah, they'd have to have more support than just from us to stay in business. You know that.

CLAYTON: There's no other building like this for --

CAMPBELL: No.

CLAYTON: -- The same kind of people.

CAMPBELL: Now, we're getting a new, we're getting a new assisted living building. You know all about Central, Central House.

CLAYTON: I've heard about it.

CAMPBELL: It's going to be lovely. Ah, but I'm a little, ah --

CLAYTON: Tell me about it.

CAMPBELL: Well, it's ah, we're -- they're going to have their opening house, ah, May 15th from four, from eleven till four, and it's going to be -- they have -- it's going to be very nice. Ah, they're going to, they're going to have, most of their help will be volunteer help I understand. They'll have a main cook and a manager. And then a lot of their help will be volunteer help, but it's for people that's ambulatory, that don't need a lot of care outside of, maybe with their dressing or, or mostly making of their, cleaning their room and cooking for them. They're ambulatory and can take care of themselves. Ah, I think they're going to have room about sixteen patients, residents, sixteen residents. It's going to be very nice, but I think there's three of them, three or four, that are Medicare patients and the rest are private pay. Well, I don't -- there's not very many of us people that pay $1200 a month for a room. More than any of us gets. So they're going to have to, ah, ah, draw from the more affluent crowd I think, because if they only got three rooms, three or four rooms, for ah, Medicaid patients, and they are residents and they'll be double rooms and the rest of them are private rooms. Well, the private rooms runs from $1050 to $1250. Well, there isn't very many people that have that much income off their Social Security, unless they have a bank account behind behind them, and most of these people in here are living on -- they're on their Social Security, and they need some or a few of them have a little pension coming in, but very few. And, but it's going to be awfully nice for those that can afford it. Very nice. And I'm so glad they've got something like that starting out here. And ah, but I think they're going to find out that they're going to have to ah, they came and interviewed me, and I said, “Well, my, I couldn't pay that kind of money. You just might as well take me off the list 'cause,” I said, “I just can't do that.” “Well, we think we can get you on Medicaid.” I said, “No, I don't think you can.” I said, “I am, I,ah, I'd rather just stay where I'm at until I can't do anything for myself.” I have -- my daughter can come down. I have, ah, a housekeeper that comes once a week for a couple of hours, and she can change my bed, and go to the store for me. Of course, they're little things, and run little errands for me. Run the vacuum and things like that. I can get along pretty good. I feel very fortunate. I'm very happy here. And ah, I think you'll find most of our people here are very happy to be here. They enjoy their home here. Now we've got, I think, about nine original people. And six of them are on my floor. Six of the originals are on this floor. And ah, so we're family. And ah, when one person hurts, we all hurt. And we try to help one another. When somebody is sick, we take, we trade food around. We've got some very good cooks in this building.

CLAYTON: Do they have special recipes from wherever they came from?

CAMPBELL: I don't know, but you come to one of our potlucks, you'd, you'd enjoy it.

CLAYTON: Tell me about some of the foods. What are some of the specialties?

CAMPBELL: Oh, they had chicken and dressing. We have fried chicken, we have every kind of salad, cakes and pies. We always have big birthday cakes, angel food cakes for our party. Ice cream on our birthday, and we have entertainment sometimes. Ah, the Old Timers come sometimes and play for us. And we have them for -- since we've been in, and we see how old they're getting too, we know that they, they aren't going to be able to play too much longer either. But ah, it's just been a, a good experience here. A happy experience. Ah, I do wish we had some more activity downtown, like a family restaurant and a grocery store, but ah, they don't seem -- they just can't seem to fight the competition or something. Well, people, it's changed. Ah, they have -- everybody has wheels. Everybody goes, travels now. It's, it's not a family, it's not a neighborhood store no more. Ah, it's, ah, well, they don't think of anything driving five or ten miles to anything anymore. Trust me, that's close. And ah, it was -- years ago, we had neighborhood grocery stores, you know, and ah, they don't have any furniture store, only Walmart what little furniture they have. We don't have no shoe stores. You, you can't shop. There's no shops, ah, oh, there's restaurants down there by Safeway. Jeanie's Dress Shop, but there's not many shops where you can shop in anything. And she's so high, you can't touch it. But ah, well, we were very happy to get Walmart even if it did take out a few businesses. And we hated it when they moved our post office. That was -- 'cause we could walk to the post office, you know. And we had a lovely dry goods store right across the street here. It was nice. Well, it went. The Iron Shop over on Jerry, it went. The drugstore, it went. Ah, and there was a dress shop over there, and it went. Ah, I've seen a lot of them go. Got a lot of empty buildings in Castle Rock. We really have. But they call it progress. [chuckles]

CLAYTON: As far as progress in terms of precedence and politics throughout the whole nation and --

CAMPBELL: Like I say, it's not only Castle Rock that's got a lot of changes. It's everywhere. Everywhere. And I just thought that L. A. thing was a disgrace for our country. I thought it was a disgrace. Ah, I feel so sorry for those people.

CLAYTON: Have you seen a lot of changes in the racial issues over the years?

CAMPBELL: I think we're, I think our country is a racist country. I don't think they're too far from -- I, they say we're doing, I think we're doing better. But when you go to the ghettos and see how those people -- you know, we spend thousands and thousands of dollars on programs, but they never get the money down to where it's needed! It goes through the committees and by the time the committees get through hashing, getting their share out, you get a little trickle down to where those people really need it. Ah, if you go down to see the conditions they're living in, now I'm not saying all, I'm not saying that ah, ah, they -- that there isn't some that just wouldn't do any different, no matter what you done. They'd be the same. But ah, I don't think that the minorities have had ah, the breaks they should have had.

CLAYTON: Do we have very many minorities or ghettos. What you would consider ghettos, in Castle Rock?

CAMPBELL: No. 'Cause Castle Rock, as I told you, don't have many poor, real poor people.

CLAYTON: Do we have street people or drunks or things like that?

CAMPBELL: Well, we might -- I don't --

CLAYTON: True alcoholics that you see running the streets?

CAMPBELL: We have one little old man that goes around down there. But he don't bother nobody. But no, no, we don't have that. Ah, now they have a little housing project over on South Street, ah, for low income families. And single parents, you know, single parent. We have a lot of single parenting over in that South Street apartments. And then there's an Oakwood apartments, now they're, they're nice. Ah, it's a middle, ah, it's in between, it's not real low. You have to pay, I think, I think it's $250 a month. You have to pay. You have to pay your own utilities. Ah, and there's no transportation out there. That's the drawback in that Oakwood. They no have no transportation unless somebody has, you know, takes them. Ah, but it's nice, as they say. Ah, ah, and then -- but they have to depend on someone to bring them to Castle Rock all the time, so it's -- but as far as, ah, a ghetto or bad, we might have a trailer park, or might not stand real standards. But ah, I don't think they're that bad. Don't think we have that in Castle Rock. Ah, I think more, ah, I think they're more of a middle class and upper -- we don't have that kind, as you would in the inner city, like Denver. Ah, -- I hate to see it, ah, and our -- I said, my daughter said, “Mother, who you going to vote for?” I said, “Well, I don't know.” I said, “There's nothing there yet that I can see that I want to vote for.”

CLAYTON: Now you're talking about Bush (George W. Bush) compared to -- ?

CAMPBELL: Bush (George H. W. Bush). Clinton (William Clinton). I think this Perot (Ross Perot). I think he might come in and give somebody a run for their money. Ah, whether he'd make a good president, ah, one thing about him, he's got the money. Ah, he won't be bought off from anyone. He wouldn't be -- he wouldn't be holding to anyone.

CLAYTON: Have you seen Presidents before or have you seen any in person? Have you -- ?

CAMPBELL: No, no, no.

CLAYTON: -- Have you seen a lot of changes in the Presidents over the years like what?

CAMPBELL: Well, I'm not for abortion. Ah, now I feel, if it's the mother's life, ah, or if it's incest, I think those are exceptional cases. But where they're using it as a child birth control, like it is today, I'm opposed to it, very opposed to it. We're killing off all of our young people. We're killing off our -- potential young people who will pay your bills, with your taxes. They won't do, when you kill that many babies a year, you don't, they won't sell cars, they won't sell houses, they won't sell nothing, but they lose. And as they say, we got fifty percent, fifty-two percent of our black men have either been in prison or are in prison and when they come out, they're not allowed to vote, you know. If you've been in the penitentiary, you cannot vote. Well, there goes fifty percent of a lot of their, ah, voting credentials right there. They can't vote for who they want. Ah, it's not fair. I see injustice ah, that I don't like. Ah, and I, and I can't, I think our Congress and the House have disgraced the country writing bad checks. If that was an ordinary person writing bad checks, they'd go to the pen! But at the White House, they can do anything they want to! They can give themselves a raise and then tax you. Ah, no, I don't think this administration is for the poor people. Don't think it ever has been. Ah, I don't know what's going to happen. I don't -- only thing I know this, and ah, I do not worry. I know who my redeemer is. I know who takes care of my problems. I know who supplies my needs, and I'm happy in the Lord, and I know He's coming soon. And He'll take care of all of us. I don't care who's in the White House. The Lord's going to come and He'll, He'll settle it. And that's just the way I feel about it so I'm happy. Ah, I'm not a worrywart. I think people that, that worry and fret, only thing they're saying is that I don't trust God. I, I, I better do it myself. And I think people that worry, they worry about things that may not ever happen. And I live one day at a time and am happy about it. And when all these awful things come, I just say, “Lord, I know these things have to happen before You can come,” so -- but I think it's, it's such a disgrace. The other countries look at us, look, we've just gone so far in the eyes of the European countries, we have just failed. Look, we're debtors, we owe everybody. We're in debt trillions of dollars. And we can't even pay the interest. We can't even pay the interest. We're going to have a crash that you've never -- it's going to come.

CLAYTON: You think we're headed for another crash?

CAMPBELL: Yes.

CLAYTON: Did you live through the earlier crashes?

CAMPBELL: In [19]32, I lived through the Depression. Yes. I did. And it was bad, but it's going to be worse this time.

CLAYTON: Now how do you say that? Why?

CAMPBELL: I feel, ah, well, during the Depression, ah, our insurance companies and our banks, so many of them, they didn't fold up like -- we've got banks folding up every day here. They ain't got no money. Banks, some, every day, we got banks a closing. Insurance companies going broke. Everything's going broke. They can't make the bills. They bought all these, ah, insurance companies and bought all these real estate, when the prices was high, and now they can't get nothing out of there. They're going broke. Ah, I just see a, a real crash. I think we'll see it. Ah, we're bankrupt, we owe everybody. We have to borrow from Japan. We have to borrow from the eastern countries. And we can't even pay -- we don't even take enough in, to pay our interest on our debt.

CLAYTON: What do you think about our relations with other countries now?

CAMPBELL: I think it's poor.

CLAYTON: As compared to what?

CAMPBELL: Well, they used to, they could look at the United States and say they're a rich country. Ah, we had money, ah, our dollar used to be something. It used to be a gold standard, not now, our dollar bill was backed by gold. We don't have nothing no more. No money there no more. No, no gold. We're, we're bankrupt. Ah, it bothers me, ah, and ah, and as far as Russia is concerned, I'm so happy for their people. But don't sell them short.

CLAYTON: Did you see the ah, the wall go up?

CAMPBELL: Berlin Wall.

CLAYTON: And then come down again?

CAMPBELL: Yes, the Lord took it down.

CLAYTON: But you saw, you lived through the time after the wars?

CAMPBELL: Yes. And ah, but during last time, the depression, you couldn't find a job. Ah, you could see the trains. They would be loaded with men going, on top of the trains, going --

CLAYTON: Where was this?

CAMPBELL: In Iowa. Ah, you could see them going on trains everywhere trying to find a job. And you'd have hobos come to your door, they weren't hobos, they were men that were hungry. Ah, it was bad, and you'd see, I'd seen soup lines, but it's not going to be anything. This is going to worse than that. Ah, my husband was a bible student, and he always, he had to make a map, we made a map about this long and he always told me, “The Lord will come by 2000.” And he said, “Helen, before that time, you'll see some hard times if you live long enough.” He says, “You're going, the colored people are going to rise,” and he says, “You'll have to sleep with a shotgun at your door to protect what you've got 'cause,” he says, “they was depressed too long.” And he said, “They're going to rebel.” And besides, they're having children and the white people won't. They're going to have numbers, they out number us, we'll be out numbered and he says, “You watch, that's what's going to happen.” Well, I think he's right. I think he's right. I see it every day. Ah, I can't, I don't condone what they done. I think it was very wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. And they was very wrong.

CLAYTON: In L. A.?

CAMPBELL: Yes. But on the other hand, I don't think there should have been that looting and killing. I think that was, that wasn't, that was the devil. That was all there was to it.

CLAYTON: Have you ever seen anything like that happen -- ?

CAMPBELL: No!

CLAYTON: -- In Castle Rock? Or Douglas County?

CAMPBELL: No. No, no.

CLAYTON: You think we have fairly good --

CAMPBELL: No.

CLAYTON: -- Police Department and -- ?

CAMPBELL: I think they do. I really do. I, I think they keep things pretty well under control.

CLAYTON: Uh, huh.

CAMPBELL: Ah, ah, I think it's a nice little town. I just like to see more businesses here.

CLAYTON: Have you seen much, you're a nurse by history --

CAMPBELL: Uh, huh.

CLAYTON: -- And I'm sure you've seen a lot of changes from when you first went into, well, even as a child, but ah, why don't you, before we go, tell me a little bit about ah, the changes you've seen including how medicine is now and in Castle Rock?

CAMPBELL: Well, I think we need some good doctors in Castle Rock. Ah, I think we could use a few good ones. We have some, ah, poor old Dr. Heaton. He's been so faithful here in Castle Rock, and he's taken care of a lot of people in Castle Rock.

CLAYTON: Is he still alive?

CAMPBELL: He's still practicing. And ah, I think he should retire, but ah, probably doesn't feel he can, you know, because -- but ah, nursing [chuckles] has changed, and even the doctors have changed. Ah, doctors used to take time and now they're on computers and you only got so much time to give to each person. Ah, and it's computer this, and computer that, and if anybody makes a mistake, it's the computer. And ah, I just went through this the other day, trying to get the nurse out here. They were supposed to have been here today, yesterday, and they didn't get here. Well, one said you're not suppose to get a nurse here, the lab's supposed to come. The other one says, “Well, we didn't get an order from the doctor, and we didn't do this.” Finally after we had went around and around and around and around and around, we got it settled, but somebody goofed. But you don't know who do, you know, you don't know who to blame. But like I say, ah, everything's on the computer. Ah, you try to call, and they'll put you on hold. It used to be you could call the doctor's office and talk to the nurse. Well, now you get this, the, the lines are all busy, if you'll just hold -- and you can hold fifteen or twenty minutes. Ah, you could be dead in the meantime. Ah, all computers. Ah, they don't, there's very, I believe, doctors are born and not made, and I feel the same way about a nurse. You've got doctors in it for the money. You've got nurses in it for a paycheck. But now I think real nurses and real doctors are born with a compassion for others. And I think part of that has gone out the window. They don't, not matter how sick you are. Now, when I first became a nurse, we didn't have recovery rooms. We took care of our patients when they came back. We had the bed made. We stayed with them. Took care of them besides your other patients. We didn't have recovery rooms. And I think they're marvelous now. We didn't have ah, ah, intensive care. We just moved them to another room. Ah, I've seen a lot of changes, and ah, I don't know if it's for the good. But I do feel, ah, one thing, if they get people up and ambulatory, it's better than they laid in bed and laid in bed and laid in bed. When I had my children, you had to stay in bed ten days. My goodness, if you got up before the tenth day, that was terrible. Ah, and I think it's wonderful, ah, the progress that they've made in getting people up, ambulatory, moving them more. But I think the nursing care has, there's just, the poor nurses today are just bogged down with paperwork. That's what they do. That paperwork drives them crazy. They're so -- and, and ah, about that craze with people sue, sue, sue, sue, malpractice, sue, sue, sue, sue. That's ridiculous. Ah, no wonder the doctors are scared to do much. They're afraid they're going to get sued. Ah, I don't know. Times have just changed, and I guess I'm just too old, but I do feel a lot of the changes are good. I like to see them. I'm not one that is opposed to changes. That's -- well, now, that's not the way we did it. I'm not like that. I like to see progress, and I like to see changes. I'm not one to say, “Well, now this is the way it has to be done because this is the way we did it for thirty years or forty years.” I don't believe in that, of course. That's just stubbornness. And I think that we have to go along with changes, and I see a lot of changes in our churches today, too.

CLAYTON: Is that good?

CAMPBELL: No. Some of them are, some of them isn't.

CLAYTON: Tell me a little bit about that? The changes you've seen in your church?

CAMPBELL: Well --

CLAYTON: Has the Castle Rock church changed a lot?

CAMPBELL: Ah, our little church over here is a very nice little church. I don't know anything about the other churches in Castle Rock. Ah, but ah, we used to, I think people were more de -- ah, devoted to their church. Not to church, but to Christ. Ah, we got a lot of people in the churches that are members of the church, they aren't Christians. They go, they give their money, they hold down the pew. But as far as any spiritual life, or going out and try to save a soul, no. You see them on Monday. They're living with the world. Ah, I see a lot of that today. Ah, if there's a good ball game or football game or ah, they have a picnic planned or they got to do this, Christ comes second. They go do their thing. He comes second, and He should be first. I don't, I don't think it's wrong ah, to do those things. [clock chimes] Now I'm not opposed to any of those things. Ah, but when you put that before your going to worship, then it's wrong. I think you should worship, then if you want to go, go. But I, I think we have too many of these that ah, He's a convenient God. Only when they need him, they'll pull his chain. And I don't like that kind of Christian a bit. I want someone that's sincere. -- I, ah, I like people that you can comfort someone and you know that they're not going to your next door neighbor and, “Did you hear this?” I don't believe in gossip. I think gossip hurts a lot of people. Even though it's good gossip, I think sometimes, it's better not to do it. And ah, but I'm going to be seventy-seven in July, and I've seen a lot of changes, and probably if I live, I'll see more. But I'm not opposed to change. If it's for good, for the good, but I can't see where anything is going to get any better. Sorry.

CLAYTON: You don't think the cars will get better and transportation in Castle Rock will get better to get us to Denver? Or anything like that?

CAMPBELL: I don't think Castle Rock will ever have a bus.

CLAYTON: What about a taxi cab?

CAMPBELL: [chuckles] We had one that didn't last!

CLAYTON: Was it convenient while it did?

CAMPBELL: Well, yeah. You could use it, but they didn't --

CLAYTON: How long?

CAMPBELL: Well, it wasn't very long. We -- I don't think they were here six months. They didn't patronize it. Everybody's got their own car. [clock chimes] And ah, I don't know. I, um, Castle Rock is going to stay a little old hick town. Just a little country town that's what it's going to stay. And ah, I don't think it'll ever change it. Ah --

CLAYTON: You don't think ah, with the golf courses that have come in that it'll help?

CAMPBELL: No. Only people it will help is the affluent people. It's not going to be the little people. No. Only thing it'll help will be those people that live in Castle Pines or Castle North or up in Plum Creek. All that beautiful houses they put up there in Plum Creek, half of them are empty. Couldn't make it. So, there's just a certain amount of money you've got, and you got -- and they built all those expensive homes up there. They're gorgeous. Lot of money. Some of the stores out here, that shopping center where Walmart is, we're having a terrible time to get them stores filled. Too much money. They, they ask too much rent. People can't afford it.

CLAYTON: Do you know what about, anything about the rent? Is it -- ?

CAMPBELL: It's high.

CLAYTON: You don't know any price type --

CAMPBELL: No, no.

CLAYTON: Uh - huh.

CAMPBELL: But I know that's the reason a lot of them have left. And ah, but ah, well, there'll be the few that will hang on. But how many businesses do we have here in Castle Rock? Not very many. The barber shop. The, the B & B. It's a restaurant. We call it the “greasy spoon.” But anyway, and then we got Fox's and you've got a print shop, and now I guess they've got a medical supply in there now. They had bicycles, and now they got medical supply in there. But really, we have them in and out. And ah, we, some beauty shops, but ah, that's about the size of us. We got a delicatessen over here. Ah, restaurant down on the corner and the Stone Church restaurant. Ah, it's nice for lunch, but nothing on Sundays. So, but like I say, Castle Rock will never grow. I don't think you'll ever see ah, much of a growth in Castle Rock. I don't think so.

CLAYTON: Well, I've really enjoyed listening to you, and ah, I, ah, it's 5:30 and ah, I'd like to close by thanking you very much.

CAMPBELL: Well, I'm not a Castle-rite. I haven't lived here that long, but I'm happy here. Ah, I think it's a nice little town, but I don't think it'll ever grow. I think it's ah, until the younger generation comes up.

CLAYTON: You think the younger generation will come --

CAMPBELL: A lot of them have moved.

CLAYTON: Left town?

CAMPBELL: Yes.

CLAYTON: Why?

CAMPBELL: I don't know. I don't know. Ah, I really can't say because I --

CLAYTON: Is the school system good? Is it not having them -- ?

CAMPBELL: Ah, I, from what I gather, they, they have been having troubles with their schools up here. Ah, I think they need to clean out the school board and put some new ones in.

CLAYTON: In Castle Rock?

CAMPBELL: Yes.

CLAYTON: Do you think we've provided the education that we need to, to have people come back to Castle Rock? Or are there just not enough jobs?

CAMPBELL: I don't have children in school anymore, see. So I can't talk on that subject 'cause I'm not ah, well acquainted with it. But I know they have troubles, drugs up in the schools. Ah --

CLAYTON: Helen, this ends our interview with the ah, for the Castle Rock Historical Society. Do you agree that this tape can go into the library for the Society?

CAMPBELL: [No response.]

END OF SIDE B TAPE 1.